So since I am going to college I am planing on getting a new laptop.
I have been half and half on the apple vs microsoft.
I do all my work on a Mircosoft and its ok.
I owe a ipod and have NOT been impressed with apples product OR Itunes.
So considering that I am going into enigerning I have decieded on my laptop. (i think)
here it is.
price 1044.00
I will buy RAM after market.
So why did I post this?
because I promised all you apple user to being able to match this.
So here you go. Show me an apple thats within the same price (+/- $100) and is brand new.
At lunch I have been using brads new apple and I like it, its cool but not cool enough to spend a lot more money on.
37 comments:
C: none of the above, especially for Mr Engineer in training.
The answer is Linux.
As much as i wish i could suggest an apple to you, for 1000 bucks, nothing apple makes will touch that Dell. The equivalent macbook is 300 bucks more. And that macbook is the same one i just bought for my step-sister - and i am NOT NOT NOT impressed. its a %#$@*& toy.
However, you can, get Microsoft office (word, excel, ppt, etc) for the mac as well, so if some mac nut (that will undoubtedly lambaste me for this blasphemous comment) talks you into a mac, you can still "work" with the MS stuff.
2gb RAM is plenty - you don't need more in a laptop used for schoolwork and internet.
If you want to go into engineering in real style - go linux. After 20 minutes with MS vista, you'll want something else anyway. Linux is free. Linux distros use "open office" which is also free. And the other engineering guys will show you respect. THe nice thing about linux, is there's lots of distro's to choose from and all of them (except Red Hat, and the retail version of SuSE) are completely free.
Seriously. I LOVE several distributions of Linux: OpenSuSE, Ubuntu (Kumuntu) Fedora. They are all FREE. If you get sick of one, get another - it costs you NOTHING but an afternoon of reinstalling.
SO i say screw the MS emprire and their POS called Vista, and screw the grossly overpriced apple lineup.
Honestly, apples aren't impressive until you get into the mac pro (and $4000 range).
Find a laptop with the hardware requirements in your price range and get one of the linux flavors installed.
And thats the truth as i see it.
Windows FTW!!!
Here was a big selling point on the laptop,
I have to run auto-cad.
Apple does NOT support that program,
which is why I need as much ram as auto-cad takes a LOT.
But thanks Jeremy for you help and unbiased opinion. I felt the same way about the macs and as a college student I can uses that "extra" 300 somewhere else.
So I guess my question is can Linux run auto-cad?
Hmmm... AutoCAD changes everything.
THere is a linux program called "wine" that emulates a microsoft environment. You could theoretically use it to run autocad on linux. My experience with Wine, however, is that it's VERY unstable. I would never use it for something i needed to be productive with.
In your case, i'd have to (unfortunately) recommend windows. Just be sure that autocad has vista support.
CAD programs are resource pigs. I think the laptop you show here is going to be marginally ok except the video card. In our labs here, we use 1000+ dollar "prfessional" video cards in Dual CPU socket computers when we test CAD environments. So i think when you get into using CAD on that laptop, you are going to spend some time waiting for the screen to display things.
Other than that, i think that laptop will serve you well through college.
Some advice - laptops get stolen a lot in colleges, so be mindful of that. College students computers (and therefore the college network) are likely to be hive of malicious bits (viruses, worrm's, etc), so i advise keeping up on anti-virus software and consider running spy-bot as well. You dont want to be repairing a jacked up computer when you need it to get stuff done.
Yea I figured out that CAD is a pig.
But I figure if i just run cad and nothing else then it should be fine.
Also I wasn't given a option on upgrading my video card.
First of all, to meet the challenge I present:
Screenshot
Same computer, except that it has a better built in camera, smaller form factor, longer battery life, and includes free shipping (not sure what the shipping costs, if any, from Dell were, but note that Apple has free shipping).
All for 1199, which is only $150 more than the Dell (not $300 as Jeremy claims) possibly less if the dell makes you pay for shipping.
Not sure where the "it's a #@$@! toy comment comes from, since most professionals are now moving to Mac's (while running a mix of OS's through virtualization) but hey, if you want to live in the 20th century more power to you.
2nd of all, as I noted above, OS X has better virtualization support than any other OS. I can run Mac programs, Windows programs, and Linux programs all natively from inside OS X, no reboot required, no running Wine and then launching programs inside that, I just launch VMWare Fusion, and then from my dock I can right click on the Fusion icon and it acts like the windows startbar, allowing me to launch any XP (Vista support in 2 months), Linux or any other virtualized program I choose. Now I wouldn't recommend running AutoCAD virtualized, but let me just say, I wouldn't recommend running AutoCAD on a laptop. Period.
I support 13 Engineering computers here at the PUD, we do GIS CAD design as well as regular CAD design. With a laptop you are NOT offered to opportunity to upgrade the video card and that will be the single most crippling factor, as you will need a high end video card to run AutoCAD.
Currently we run AutoCAD 2008 here, and we are upgrading to AutoCAD 2009, which brings me to my next point. Vista does NOT support AutoCAD 2008 or 2009 (but they claim 2010 will be supported on Vista)... they will "run" but many features either just don't work, or cause AutoCAD to crash. If you refuse to look at a Mac, at least make sure you get XP, as Vista will cripple your ability to do CAD work on a PC box.
But ultimately, if I were in your shoes this would be my recommendation:
But a laptop that will be your primary schoolwork laptop, but not a with a CAD machine in mind. The laptop will serve you well writing papers, doing research and for general "schoolwork" and you most likely won't have any CAD heavy classes for at least a year, probably 2 years. I am guessing the school already has a CAD lab of some kind which you can utilize if you don't have a CAD machine, and then after a year or 2 you can look at buying a DESKTOP to be your CAD machine. You will spend less money and get more machine with a desktop and you can customize it to do your CAD work. Plus as technology progresses the same machine you could buy today for $1000 you can get in 2 years for $500. This way, when you get in to the heavy years of where you will actually be doing lots of CAD work, you will have a newer machine that will be able to support the latest CAD software. If you purchase a machine with CAD in mind today, in 2 years when you are doing heavy CAD design you are going to be behind.
Also note, that when doing CAD work all of our engineers run a 19" monitor at minimum, most run 21" and up, again, not work you will want to be doing on a laptop.
I highly, HIGHLY encourage you to not think of your laptop as a future CAD machine (whether it's Apple, MS, Linux or whatever) but instead just target a "schoolwork" machine, and consider a CAD computer later on down the road. Trying to pack a CAD machine in to a laptop will cause you to spend more money on a machine that won't meet your needs in a very short amount of time.
Just my .02
Just a couple of things.
I really appreciate your guys feedback.I don't know anything about computers really, so thanks.
But I don't have a unlimited supply of money.
I have to buy a laptop to get me though 3-4 years of school AND buy a car.
So I am looking at spending around 1000 dollars for a computer + or - 200 dollars.
So I guess I need bang for my buck, and what it looks like to me, I can get a tricked out dell for the SAME price of a stock mac.
To me the scales are not even.
Again thanks for the feedback. More would be GREAT.
How is it a "tricked out dell" vs a "regular mac"... the computers are exactly the same!
2.4 Ghz
2 Gigs of RAM
160 GB HD
Built in Camera/Wireless
Onboard Video with shared DDR
They are literally the exact same computer... one isn't "tricked out" more than the other...
And again, if you are buying a machine to do CAD work, don't look at a laptop. Don't go near a laptop, don't even THINK about a laptop.
It just won't happen, Mac, PC or anything else, a laptop for doing CAD work is just a BAAAAD idea.
If you feel you HAVE to buy a machine to do CAD work, and you are budget conscience, you pretty much have to buy a desktop.
Also note I have both our Drafting Department Engineers in my office right now (they are installing AutoCAD on the new computers we are rolling out to the PUD) and they both agreed that trying to do CAD work on a laptop wouldn't work well. Brian (one of the guys) just completed a drafting school and he said he would take all of his coursework, and any templates that they wanted him to use, download them, and then take them to his home desktop because it would take him 4-5 times longer trying to do the same work on a laptop because of how slow it ran and the screen limitations.
So I REALLY REALLY REALLY strongly urge you to possibly look at spending LESS money on the laptop than you were thinking, and then target a desktop CAD machine down the road (and I would bet my last dollar that CWU will have a drafting CAD lab which you will be able to utilize as a student which will have top of the line machines running whatever CAD software the school supports, and your best/cheapest bet is to do your work there. You will have the help of fellow students and faculty in the lab that you wouldn't get in your dorm room or elsewhere. And it's free).
Ahhh! I forgot about the student discounts. Thats how the macbook is cheaper, right?
I'm no mac hater. I have a LOADED mac pro right next to me as i type this, and i LOVE LOVE LOVE it. I just think the macbook is disapointing - then again, i haven't seen the dell.
I cannot agree with Ryan more on the CAD on the laptop thing. Just dont!
The deal with virtualization apps like vmware, parallels, fusion, etc, is that they don't do 3d graphics acceleration. So don't think you can get a Mac, load a windows guest and think you can play windows games, or run video intensive stuff. Thats not how virtualization is used. BTW, at home, i run XP on my PC and have Vmware workstation running Kubuntu and opensuse linux. I do that just for fun, and for trying out different linux distros. At work, i am in the process (as we speak) of building 2 vmware ESX servers to consolidate about 12 servers onto these 2 boxes. And am using 2 boxes solely for redundancy.
If you can get an XP/mac/linux laptop, you can probably drop to 1gb RAM if that saves you money. But i think RAM is cheap these days. I run 1gb on this IBM thinkpad and its fine for typical use. But if you end up with Vista, you will definitely want the 2gb.
I am just saying here, But at work auto-cad works fine with laptops.
Yes I totally agree and understand that a desk top would be better, but I guess I am trying to kill two birds with one stone. I can't afford both right now, and I need a laptop.
But again I feel like I need to bring this up,
I will be a college student so money will be tight.
It seems to me that I would be pissing money away with buying a mac. (I am not a Mac hater, I just don't buy into that MAC IS BEST deal) A couple of hundred bucks is a lot of money to me, money that could be spent on a car/gas/tuition, etc, etc.
Yes a mac would get the job done but it seems like me the dell could get it done easier/cheaper/faster.
(Cheaper as in I don't have to buy windows)
Well I have read through everything that everyone has posted here and I want to start by saying that NO MATTER what anyways says this is not a OS debate. This is a hardware and chasis debate.
Even though Ryan is planted firmly in the mac camp he is exactly right about a laptop being a poor idea for AutoCAD, don't believe me? ask any of the consultants (here at CCI Solutions) that try to run it on theirs, in fact ask Rick Boring about it because he is running a Mac Book Pro and VMWare using Windows XP and AutoCad 2009. His MacBook was much more expensive then you are talking about though.
Also as a side note VMWare is being touted as a good option on the Mac but it has associated costs to purchase it (I am being vague because I do not know for sure)
Another side note is that you MUST NOT RUN VISTA. I am not a mac advocate as many of the readers or your blog are BUT VISTA IS A TURD, the only thing I have found better on VISTA then XP is file synchronization for remote users which you don't even care about.
Here is my recomendation that I think will serve you well in the long run. Build your own computer. As I have looked into CAD workstations with CAD computer consultants their recommendations were this.
Windows XP 64Bit on top of 64Bit hardware. The reason? Because Windows XP can not address more then 3GB of RAM for the system, there are limits in its ability to deal with large amounts of RAM.
3 GB of Ram may sound like a lot but it won't be in 2 years when you are running AutoCad 2020 R387. Every year they put out a new program and every year I am floored that anyone installs the upgrade, its a hog, its bloatware beyond what XP or even Vista is.
To sum everything up, you are looking to drag race an Ascari A10 but only have the budget for a kia spectra. The reason I am suggesting build your own is because you will be able to spend less now but add more, relatively cheaply, later.
Seriously in about 2 years a plasma donation will pay for 4GB of RAM. Just something to think about.
Ok, so in the time it took me to write this epic comment like 4 more posts were made.
Here are some questions you need to be able to answer first?
First Question: Why do you need a laptop?
Second Question: What are your intentions for this computer? Give me the top five by priority to you.
Third Question: Are you willing to learn about the computers enough to do some work yourself or do you want something that JUST WORKS?
jeremy's opinion is NOT unbiased. it is biased towards linux... which in my opinion is a really bad idea. you won't have the type of support you do from running a more common OS: XP, VISTA, OS X. [please don't run vista]
4GB of RAM for a MacBook is $95 from OWC. 4GB... that's TWICE what you are looking at in the dell. additionally, i would suggest a refurb model... but that's just me. i just bought or helped people buy 4 of them in the last few months... and they all LOVE them! i'm assuming ryan did all the shopping around to get you the best deal [ie student dsic. etc.], b/c he's thorough so i'm not going double to check. but i DO highly recommend the refurb model if money is tight... same warranty... same series... same computer.
furthermore, if viruses, worms, etc. are such a fright on college networks... may i suggest you GET A MAC? you won't have to run spyware, antivirus, blah blah blah, RAM hogs, etc.
most people who buy virtualization software because they think they have a program that they just "have to run", actually find that they never use it. i'm not even going to touch the CAD conversation. look, if you're needing to run CAD for work or school... your work or school will provide it and spending THEIR money on it is way better than spending YOUR money on it... and that won't be for many years down the road. trust me.
AJ, you like to be cool. and being cool nowadays means you are rocking a tight macbook. that's not my reasons for it, but i'm just saying i know you and i know culture.
but my largest argument comes in the form of software: OS X is so easy to use! everything you ever need to make videos, edit pics, record music, store media, etc. is all right there for FREE on every mac.
their market share is growing like mad.
i also would like to suggest that in your comments to ben about not "owning your music via iTunes, but owning it through a Zune music service" is absolutely wrong. the opposite is true. you RENT it with a Zune... the minute you stop paying monthly fees, you've got nothing to show for it. so get your facts straight before you start bad mouthing to young impressionable kids!
[but mostly i just wanted to subscribe to this thread so i can follow it during staPH meeting!]
SUBSCRIBED!
AJ, you NEED to get a laptop NOT a desktop for college. in this culture... it's all wireless.
[dorms, around campus, coffee shops, traveling home, etc.]
don't get a desktop...
Justin,
Without bashing you too much, THATS FREAKING RETARDED, is the computer supposed to be a status symbol or a tool. I have a really beat up hammer that works just as well as the cool kid on the block with the shinny hammer.
i know AJ.
i know culture.
i know college culture.
it's pretty lame to lug your desktop home for visits or down to the local coffee shop where EVERYONE else is going to be.
the desktop [AS PERSONAL COMPUTER] is dead.
NOTE: as personal computer.
let's just be honest here:
you are a MAC hater derek.
but i'm still a derek lover.
Hehe, to reply to Big D - I am not firmly entrenched in the Mac camp, I actually only one one Mac... and I have 5 computers turned on in my home right now, only one of them runs OS X. 1 runs XPMC, one runs XP, and 2 run Ubuntu.
I just wanted to state that the idea that a Mac costs more than a Dell is false, price for hardware they have similar, if not the same cost.
My recommendation actually would be to echo Derricks, if this is truly a CAD machine, build your own desktop.
BUT, my belief is that this is not going to be a primary CAD machine, but instead is a "schoolwork" machine, in which case you will probably want to take to class and carry around with you, aka, a laptop.
If that is the case, and you get over the whole "I must have a CAD machine" you can look at much lower specs than what you have. Office, IE, et all are not highly CPU intensive, so a good 1.83 Core Duo or 2 Ghz Core Duo will be more than enough, no need to shell out the extra cash for the 2.4. Throw in 2 gigs of RAM (more than enough for web browsing) and a smaller (100 gig?) Hard drive and you are looking at a laptop that will do everything you want, and be probably $300 or more what your current Dell specs are.
The key is you have to give up the idea of doing CAD on your laptop.
Also note, while I will defend the Mac and of course think it is a great option, I would probably recommend an XP based machine for you because it is what you are familiar with and comfortable with. It will also be easier for you to find support at CWU for an XP machine than a Mac. If you were living in Shelton it might be different, I would suggest the Mac and then you could spend 3-4 months asking Justin, myself, and others questions on how to do this or that. But being as you are leaving for college your support network around you will most likely be one that handles XP best.
Hence I would recommend XP. On a much lower spec'd machine than what you are looking for.
I'm not as biased as you may think, I just want to present all sides of the argument. But like I said, in the scenario AJ is laying out, I suggest a much cheaper laptop and punt CAD...
Yikes... thread moving too fast.
But I do have to agree with Derrick on the whole "buying for status/culture" aspect is retarded.
I think there are LOTS of reasons to own a laptop, especially in college, but as a status symbol/fitting in with culture... that is about as piss poor as it gets.
Again, if you are stuck on buying a CAD machine, a desktop is the way to go (and build your own). If you are willing to give up the dream of using a laptop for CAD and just want one for schoolwork, I suggest toning down the specs you have and spending 500-700 on an XP laptop that will do everything else you want.
Ok let me start off my saying there is much love in my heart for the .justin and everyone else in the mac camp. I personally don't have any preference on the OS as long as the machine runs. Really OSX is a great OS and really I do think vista is a giant turd. The reality of it is that I don't view a computer as anything more then a tool.
It is a tool to get things done, it is a tool to product things, to communicate with people, to create new content. I believe that any computer you get will allow you to do what it is your doing, the question is at what cost and how long will it take to accomplish it.
CAD Machines (good ones especially) are really really expensive and not in your price range. The reality of it is that you can run it on any computer but how valuable do you think your time is going to be?
You can labor through the CAD work on your laptop but is it worth losing three or four hours due to ineffeciencies? I am sure I just mispelled that....
Ryan is right about the computer lab for CAD, it is probably your best bet for effecient time in producing your drawings. Effecient is the key word, the real world is not about how your computer makes you feel but how quickly you get through your work.
FYI I am specing a MAC Book Pro for some DAW work for some work at church. Just thought that might be interesting to some of you.
My Linux "bias" is solely because its free and AJ is tight on cash. Craigslist a used laptop, wipe it clean, toss on linux - done.
If the use of the laptop is only for schoolwork and internet. Linux will be fine and the productivity programs are free. With Apple or MS, you pay (a lot) for those apps.
Support is not an issue. Linux online updates are just as good as apple or MS.
Agree, that a laptop is better for college student.
Agree that the school likely has a CAD lab, so he won't likely need as CAD box.
IF you want to have the cad program in your dorm, you might look into the cost of a license. They are very$$$$$$
Ok I will try to answer all your questions.
1. I need a laptop to be portable, I like the idea of being able to work form coffee shops, etc, etc etc. Also I want something that I can bring home.
2. 1. School work. (reports, internet, etc, etc, etc)
2 AutoCad. Auto-Cad is the base upon which engineering is taught, (or so I am told)
3. Entertainment (dvd player, internet, music player, movie maker etc, etc, etc)
4. Durability (as in being able to last 3 years!)
5. After I finish using it I plan on giving it to my bro.
3. Yes I would like to learn, and be willing. I like/love learning how stuff works.
To justin,
Yes I like to be cool, and yes a mac is cool, and yes I like the media stuff that mac has.
But right now I want a laptop thats best for me for school, not looks.
If i buy this laptop because i want girls to like me more, then I would say thats a good purchase. (thats what clothes are for!)
And with the zune you can RENT or BUY your music, my mom BUYS her music and she OWES it. (no limits, like how many times you can burn it, or play it on computers)
And I totally agree with the wireless deal.
Ryan, XP is more then vista.
To, all
I was looking at my classes and what Engineers have to take, I would be taking Cad classes at the end of my sophmore year.
Hope this all helps, I will try to answer all your questions.
also thanks for the help!
Personally I agree with Jeremy on it, coming from the CS major point of view linux was awesome, granted back in the day when I first started with slackware I thought I was going to loose my mind.
And the price is right on the Linux OS side of things. Its hard to beat free, the cost to you AJ though will be learning a new OS and a new way of thinking.
Also I know that CAD licenses can be cheap to free depending on what the enginering program has worked out. Educational prices can be awesome for students.
Good point by jeremy. If you plan on running CAD on this laptop, no matter how much you spend on the laptop budget another $1000 just for the AutoCAD software.
And I SORTA agree with the Linux comment. The OS is free and that reduces the cost, but the productivity apps are usually released on GNU and are ported for any OS.
For example, I run NeoOffice on my Mac, which is just the Mac port of OpenOffice, which runs on most linux OS's and MS OS's.
It does EVERYTHING that Office does (including saving to and reading from Office file types) and at a cost that can't be beat: $0.
I will say that is where OS X does carry some "value", the movie, dvd, picture editing and authoring software is top notch (and when you add in gimp (or Seashore on the Mac), again ported to all OS's, instead of Photoshop, you have another product that does everything for a price that can't be beat: $0).
Ultimately, the OS cost to me is negligible... Linux will be your cheapest, MS the most expensive, and OS X in between... but when choosing the OS I would go with ease of use for you. If you OS X intimidates you and Linux is a foreign wonderland, buy an MS OS (XP) and go from there. If money is super tight and you don't mind a bit of growing pains on a steeper learning curve, Linux can't be beat on price. If you want to go somewhere in the middle, not quite as steep of a learning curve, but with a price associated, OS X is a great option.
But ultimately this is all a sidetrack conversation, like Derrick said. This is really a hardware conversation over a OS conversation.
What you really should now be asking is: Should I buy Intel or should I buy AMD... and I am sure Jeremy might have some comments to supply there ;)
FYI its Derek
well, if you want your laptop to keep your lap warm, go AMD, and dont block the air flow. ;-)
I will but aside my "company man" bias for a minute and suggest that AJ get the best machine he can get his hands on for the money he has regardless of the CPU.
Auto cad is freeish.
Freeish as in sometimes its free or at a really discounted price.
I think SPSCC cost for AutoCad 08 was like 75 bucks. And I have heard that sometimes if you take the class you get a copy (to borrow) for free.
I would be willing to learn something new if it wasn't to hard.
What it really comes down to. (for me) is price.
I want my best bang for my buck.
I have around 1000 dollars that I plan on using. but heres the thing the more money I use on a laptop the less money i have to use on a car, spend less on laptop I can get a better car.
About the OS,
I have used windows all my life and am fine with it,
Mac OS I have used little but have liked what I have seen.
Linux: No Idea.
I just learned about Linux a couple of months ago So I don't know anything about it. Nothing.
But I can learn, and am sometimes a fast learner.
And like Big D said I can get some awesome discounts on software. (spy ware and anti-virus is handed out like candy at the school.)
To Jeremy,
What you wrote is really want I want to know.
Put aside the Mac vs Dell vs Everything else.
I just want whats best for me and my money and my grades.
Again here is what I want to use it for.
I need a laptop to be portable, I like the idea of being able to work form coffee shops, etc, etc etc. Also I want something that I can bring home.
1. School work. (reports, internet, etc, etc, etc)
1a. AutoCad. Auto-Cad is the base upon which engineering is taught, (or so I am told)
2. Entertainment (dvd player, internet, music player, movie maker etc, etc, etc)
3. Durability/reliability (as in being able to last 3 years!)
4. After I finish using it I plan on giving it to my bro.
on this whole auto-cad deal, I could work in a lab, but being able to do homework somewhere else would be great.
looks to me like everything's pointing you to a 2.4GHz refurbished MacBook with a $95 4GB RAM kit from OWC for $1099. [and a copy of Microsoft Office 2008 from me to you with a wink and a high five.]
i'm stoked for you... good choice!
First off thank you to everyone that had input. I listened (well read) all of it. And after talking to rick and Derek and looking at CWU classes and stuff like that,I have come to my decision.
1. I will wait in till august to buy a laptop. (more bang for my buck)
2. I will spend less money and get a cheaper laptop.
3. That means no MacBook.
It sounds like you got good advice, and are making a smart decision.
Thanks Ryan,
I sure do hope I am making the correct choice.
i personally think you'll regret it about november 15, 2008.
call me then and let me know how much you wish you had a MacBook.
i'll be waiting.
[link here.]
... i'm just saying ...
and I am just saying a couple hundred dollars EXTRA is not worth the name (mac/apple).
If you base your decision of buying a computer on cost, then Mac is not the computer for you. That doesn't mean Macs cost more, but it just shows that a computer for you is not the same to you as it is to mac users.
Please continue using your almost decade old Windows XP, or dare to upgrade to Vista and then return to XP. We really don't care.
My recent Mac I originally purchased for a little over $2,000 and three years later I sold it for $800 only to buy a discounted student rate Mac tower for $1400 brand new. I would love to get back to you in three years and see what your new laptop is going for then. Also keep in mind with Windows outdated software and bloat (reference: http://microsuck.com/) your PC will continue to get slower with every upgrade.
No qualms about ubuntu! Dell even offers that pre installed.
Anyways, good luck and I hope you find what you are looking for.
here's just one more reason to go mac.
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